Undeivided with Michelle Gyimah
Danya: [00:00:00] Welcome to UUndeivided the podcast championing diversity, equity, and inclusion. I'm Danya Atkinson, your host on a mission.
For change. Whether you're a seasoned advocate or just starting out, this episode of Undeivided promises to inform and empower. Today, we're tackling pay gap reporting with Michelle Gyimah. She's an expert in this field. She spent the last 15 years as a staunch advocate for pay gap equity. And she's also a keynote speaker to spread the word on this very subject.
Having developed a wealth of knowledge and experience while serving at the equality and human rights commission. She's now here to share more with us on Undeivided. So let's dive right in.
Michelle, thank you so much for taking the time today to speak about, um, that pay equity consulting and all of the different trends that you've been seeing across the entire globe. I'd love to be able to understand a little bit more about who you are, you know, what you've [00:01:00] done, and also really how did you get into this space.
Michelle: Yeah, so thanks for having me on the podcast. Um, so I guess like lots of people, , it was by accident. It wasn't something that I set out to do. So in my first role, my first kind of like real job I guess. Um, after university I worked at the Equality and Human Rights Commission, which is a. like a non, non-departmental government body here in the uk.
So we're not part of the government, but it was kind of like adjacent as it were. , and the role of that organization was to provide advice for employers and service providers and the government as well, on anything to do with equality because we had a new piece of legislation in 2010 called the Equality Act, which really focused on. to ensure that people that have protected characteristics, , were free from discrimination, whether it was in the workplace [00:02:00] or in accessing services. So my first role there was advising, um, education, , service providers on anything to do with equality. I was on the helpline as it were. And then through a series of promotions, I found myself within the equal Pay team, which was, , quite daunting because prior to the interview, I'd never heard of Equal Pay.
Like I didn't, I didn't know what it was. and so it was one of those roles where I was learning on the job and my role there was to support employers in understanding what. You know, the Equal Pay Act said, obviously once I understood it myself I would provide advice and guidance like the written guidance, or I would, you know, do seminars and, and webinars for organizations on helping them understand what the legislation said and then helping them translate that in into real life. So that was my introduction to anything to do with equal pay. [00:03:00] And then obviously that kind of naturally led into. , work around, um, pay gaps as well. So looking mainly at gender pay gaps, but also kind of looking at, , ethnicity pay gaps as well. And so that was, well, well over 10 years ago, so I've been in this space for, for, yeah, for quite some time now.
Danya: And that's great. , tell me a little bit about the legislation. What were the most remarkable legislative changes and what did you need to really advise employees on the changes?
Michelle: Yeah, so that's interesting because when I first started in that role, , we only had the Equal Pay Act and that had. Been around since the 1970s. And so when we talk about equal pay, we are looking at, you know, the pay between men and women within organizations, , that are doing the same work or very similar work, and ensuring that there's no bias and discrimination.
And so that's not to say [00:04:00] that. , everybody gets paid equally, but it's about ensuring that, you know, women are not being paid less than men, , for reasons that are not objective, essentially. , and it's about ensuring that it's not because they're women, that they're being paid less. It has to be a genuine reason such as, you know, qualifications, experience, et cetera. and so that was the legislation that, you know, we already had. We'd had that for years. But what happened was there was talk within the government about addressing the gender pay gap, which is something different. And so that looks at, you know, where women are placed within organizations. And the gap in their earnings because of where they're placed in organizations and that.
And that's what we are measuring. So we are looking at progression like what are the progression issues for women? And we know that it's not about capability or abilities often to do with structural discrimination. , particularly not only, but particularly when women have [00:05:00] children and the impact that that has on their career progression. And what was really interesting about this legislation is that this was a problem that organizations had had for many, many years, but there was never any real catalyst for them to do anything about it. organizations would have this data, this information, it would be kind of shared maybe a lot among the select few within an organization. But because there was no legislation around it, there was no real drive to address that as a problem. But this legislation came in in 2017 and what it said was, is that if you were a company that had 250 employees or more, you now how to had to report on your gender pay gap every year. And it would be done publicly. The information had to go into a government portal. This government portal would hold. Information for three years. So anybody can go and look up the name of an organization and see the last three [00:06:00] years of, , pay gap reporting basically kind of make an assessment as to what they thought about the organization based on this data. as you can imagine, , it kind of went down like a lead balloon. Uh, there were a lot of organizations that were really, really worried. About having such, I don't know, I guess maybe explosive data out there in the ether for people to look at whenever they wanted and then to make up their own minds about what they thought about an organization. So there was a lot of resistance from, know, within the business lobby. But then on the other hand, there were a number of organizations who understood the value of doing this work and welcomed. The challenge and welcome the transparency and openness. So that was 2017. It's now at the time of recording 2024.
So we've, you know, had, what, seven years of this. And
Danya: Yeah.
Michelle: from being a very hush, hush niche [00:07:00] topic to something that's much more mainstream now. It's now, don't wanna say a safe conversation because some organizations still find it tricky, but it's definitely not a very niche conversation anymore.
It's much more mainstream.
Danya: Yeah, I think you create space for communities to really get, get sense of what the. Organization is about in the first place, , with more transparencies, more laws rounded. I'd love to just pull on that thread where you're talking about, , essentially shifts, right? To be able to ensure that we make people as elevated as possible with a male or female, and that also.
Attributes to their biological clock when people take their time off as females for pregnancies, maternity, you know, sometimes people have some sabbaticals for mental health breaks. And really that shift from the differences between the pay [00:08:00] gaps on promotion ceilings and that transparency around it. Do you mind if you could comment on that in terms of what's the next steps?
How can organizations really tackle this challenge?
Michelle: Yeah. and it's a good question because I think what has happened in the past is that a lot of people have, have viewed payout reporting as a way to just kind of have, you know, a, a figure next to an organization and put them in a
Danya: Hmm.
Michelle: these are the worst 10 companies within the law
Danya: Name and shame.
Michelle: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And that was actually one of the biggest fears that the business lobby had that, you know, people be put into this league table. And, and I think, you know, let's, let's be honest that that has happened and it's, it's almost like the easiest thing to do when you just have a set of data.
You can literally just put people in order and you know, you've got an article and off you go. But the, the, the reason the real purpose behind pay gap reporting was not [00:09:00] necessarily to name and shame, I think that's a side effect, but it's more about galvanizing organizations to take a good look at their systems and look at the reasons behind. Why they have a pay gap in the first place. So there'll be lots of people, mainly statisticians who will argue that there's a flaw in the way that organizations have to produce this data. And I'm not a stats person, so I can't, you know, say whether that's true or not. But from my perspective, the real benefit is for organizations to look and say, okay, well this is what our data is telling us.
So this is what we know about our organization, and we can see. We can pinpoint. Where the gap is widest. And so that gives us, know, , something to focus on in terms of what that looks like. And so for some organizations, it might be that they're not attracting enough women into the organization. For some it will be, there's, you know, a dearth of women within the top of the organization.
And for others, you know, [00:10:00] they might find that women are really stuck within certain roles. And there's issues to do with retention and promotion. . And so, you know, really it varies from organization to organization as to what their kind of sticking point is. But that for me has, you know, is the main benefit that organizations get to interrogate the way in which they do business, the way in which they are an employer to their employees, and what that career kind of progression experience is like. If you're a man compared to if you're a woman, and then obviously that doesn't even take into consideration other protected characteristics like age or ethnicity or your level of education, et cetera. It's just that it's that real kind of basic starting point looking at gender, and then you find once you start to do that work, you kind of unpick other problem areas within the organization as well.
Danya: When you speak about other protected correct characteristics, has [00:11:00] there been some that definitely are high on the radar at the moment?
Michelle: Yeah. So the next one that is talked about quite a lot is ethnicity pay gap reporting. , so at the moment that is not legislation. . It's entirely voluntary. So some organizations do report on their pay gap, though we have seen in the last few years the numbers of organizations reporting publicly has has been falling. But there has been talk within government about whether we should include ethnicity, pay gap reporting, and then. Obviously because it's not, , as, , I guess a binary as gender in the way that the legislation asks people to report. There's much more nuances and, you know, other things to consider. , there needs to be, you know, real thought put behind how organizations would be expected to report on ethnicity, , because it's, because it's different to gender. , when [00:12:00] it comes to gender, most organizations have. That information. But when it comes to ethnicity, a lot of organizations don't because they've not asked people
Danya: Hmm.
Michelle: their ethnic backgrounds are. And so they might have, you know, really no low numbers, , in terms of the number of people who've self-identified, and that has an impact on what they can and can't report. Having said that, , here in the UK we are likely to have a general election either this year or early next year. , and the opposition party, which is a Labor party, they have put in their manifesto that ethnicity pay gap reporting is going to be mandatory. That that's what they're going to bring in. and so you know, that combination of some organizations doing this work and the Labor Party manifesto. Means that it shouldn't come as a surprise to organizations if they're requested to do this work and it, and one of the things that I have found when I'm talking to [00:13:00] organizations is that quite a lot of organizations have started to do this work,
Danya: Mm-Hmm.
internally. So they either have data which is sufficient, or they've realized that they've got insufficient data and they're working on this behind the scenes, but haven't publicly. Talked about it. And I think there is some, nervousness and, and cautiousness around this topic because still race is, you know, still
Yeah.
Michelle: nervous topic here in the uk. So I think a lot of organizations are kind of trying to prepare themselves behind the scenes before they go public with what data and information that they have. But it's definitely something that's on the horizon. And kind of off the back of that there is talk about, well. You know, what about the disability pay gap as well? And again, that's currently voluntary. Some organizations do report in it publicly, , and some will will have that information and data But I know, for the NHS, for the National Health Service in the [00:14:00] uk. That is one of their priorities to start looking at the ethnicity, pay gap reporting, and also disability pay gap reporting. So obviously, they see the value in doing this work and having this information in terms of trying to be, you know, , a much more inclusive employer that's kind of for the modern age as it were.
Danya: I think despite all of the different. Protected characteristics, right? Whether it gender, disability, ethnicity, age, whatever it is, embarking on this journey of trying to be able to make sure you have that data available and then also decided what to do with it. It can be quite jarring. It would be interesting to understand a little bit more about what's going through their minds, you know, what are the common misconceptions or any, is there any sort of resistance that organizations face?
Michelle: Yeah. Um, well, when the data [00:15:00] doesn't look good, there's, there is a lot of resistance and the,
Danya: Yeah.
Michelle: level is just not wanting to talk about it and trying to pretend that this isn't happening to them. They don't have to do anything about it. , but I would say kind of behind that, you know, the topic of. You know, money and career progression and who's deserving of, you know, getting a promotion, et cetera, is still a very charged one. And it's a topic that many organizations really, really shy away from there isn't much thought being given to, well, how do we talk about this in the workplace? So I would say that there is a lot of resistance and what I find. Is that organizations always think that the well not always often think that the answer is that they have to give pay rises to people and that it's gonna cost, you know, thousands and millions, you know, to,[00:16:00]
Danya: Hmm.
Michelle: size of the organization to, to fix the problem. And so when you have that kind of, thought process that. Whatever their, , remedy is, it's gonna cost a lot. Um you know, the, the resistance to even doing the work or looking beyond the numbers is very, very high. And so., and for me that's kind of reflective of the fact that we still have a lot of work to do in terms of education in helping organizations to understand, you know, what the reasons behind the pay gaps are.
And it's not always and only about rectifying, you know, people's pay levels. You know, quite often it will be systemic issues in terms of like how you do your recruitment, for example, or what your promotion process looks like and whether you have. Pay transparency. And how do you, , how do you advance and retain your employees?, so for me, I think the biggest resistance piece is around that lack of understanding [00:17:00] as to what causes the pay gap in the first place. And if you have that lack of understanding, then you have the lack of understanding of what it takes to rectify it. , I, I would say, and you know, you know how it is.
You know, people resist change. They may, they may fear that this means, doing things differently means more work for me, or that I'm gonna lose out in some way. So, you know, I, it's not uncommon for me to hear that, you know, a lot of male managers or you know, male employees are worried that, you know, doing this work means that women will get promotions over them. , it's a valid, it's a valid concern, but it's one that I see that comes up time and time again and again, it's about the education piece of, you know, helping people to understand that that isn't a solution and it's not necessarily the solution. That there are other things that can be done to address the pay gap and none of them has to be detrimental to somebody else.
Danya: Fair [00:18:00] enough. I didn't really think too much about it. Right. From a layman's perspective, really, how do you close the pay gap? You just help to increase promotions and make sure that people are being paid, um, meritocratically and. Unfortunately, that obviously is a large cost to the business. I know you spoke a little bit about other strategies of closing the pay gap and including pay transparency and things like that, and you spoke to recruitment.
Could you share a little bit about those tactics?
Michelle: Yeah, so I mean, it all depends on what your pay gap data is telling you. So yes, there may be some leveling up of pay. But like I said before, quite often it's more about the systemic issues because the issues around having pay gaps in the first place is, , that lack of opportunity and the, you know, opportunity not being equitable for women compared to their male counterparts.
And so if we take. Recruitment. , [00:19:00] as an example, you know, an organization might find that, you know, part of the reason why they have such a high pay gap is because they have, you know, very few women within the organization. Or maybe those women are clustered into those lower paid
Danya: Right. Okay.
Michelle: affects, you know, which affects their data. So for an organization like that, they need to go back and, you know, have a look at what their recruitment processes is like for you, right from the beginning piece of. down and creating a job description all the way through to, you know, how the marketing is done or the language, how the interviews are held, who's holding them, you know, do they have, , kind of UpToDate, anti-bias training, you know, what happens in decision making, you know, are people's biases being checked there? What's the onboarding process like? So there's a lot of kind of areas for an organization to be looking at within. Just the recruitment process. , because what I tend to see is that when pay gaps come, [00:20:00] it's very rarely this one big thing, but usually it's a combination of small, behaviors throughout the employee life cycle that add up to why you have your pay gaps in the first place.
Danya: Very interesting. And with the companies that you're currently consulting with, without naming names of course, you know, what are the main themes in terms of. Solutions and answers to the problem.
Michelle: Yeah. Um, so the recruitment one is usually a really big one.
Danya: Hmm.
Michelle: The next two I would say is around promotion, like how it's done. I. Often hear from employees that they just don't understand what the promotion process is.
Danya: Okay.
Michelle: yeah. So, and, and I've, you know, heard especially from female employees or say literally came into work on like a Tuesday and I don't know. Bob has been promoted to a role and they'd be [00:21:00] like, I didn't even know that role was available and it existed and it wasn't advertised. , and so there's still is this very kind of casual way of promotions happening. And then obviously if you don't have that, , relationship with the person who's making that decision, then. Then you, you, you do miss out. So the promotion process and the transparency of the promotion process and the objectivity of how promotions are done is often, um is often a really big issue that organizations, I guess, have gotten into the habit of doing. And because it's kind of always worked, they've just kind of always carried on, but not realizing that that's having a detrimental impact, not only on their pay gap data, but on the morale of. Their employees, in particular the female employees. , and also because this is a, a, a topic that still has a little bit of nervousness around it, you know, [00:22:00] maybe those women don't feel confident enough to speak up and say something, or if they do, know, their concerns are dismissed. So those, so the, the promotion, , transparency issue is a, is a big one. And then the next one that kind of ties into that is the issue around pay transparency. And that's not necessarily about knowing everybody's pay in the organization, but it's about understanding how pay decisions are made so that people can see that there is, know, that it is objective, but also understanding what does the next level look like.
So if I am, you know, at grade, you know, whatever, and I wanted to go up to the next grade, well, what does at least the starting salary for that look like? And what is it that I need to do? be able to move up. so that I, I find is, is quite an issue. There's still, you know, a, a fair amount of pay secrecy within the organizations.
And then when it comes to promotion [00:23:00] time, if you don't know what to ask for, you know, there's a good chance that you will low ball yourself trying to stay safe and ask for a number that you think is acceptable. But, you know, people are operating in that vacuum where there's. They don't have that data, they don't have that information, and that can exacerbate the pay gap as well. So yeah, so I would say, you know, recruitment issues, promotion issues and pay transparency issues are kind of the key themes that come up in some way, shape, or form. Time and time again,
Danya: And for companies who have been successful in tweaking those strategies and customized to really their core challenges, has there been lots of successes? Could you share some success stories on it or, , is it still a work in progress? I mean, there's always work to do, but it'll be great to understand a little bit from your point of view.
Michelle: Yeah, and, and I think it's a really good question to ask because I feel that sometimes we are still stuck [00:24:00] on this concept that success is only, you know, my pay gap was. You know, and now it's 20%. And I'm not trying to take anything away from that because you know, that's great news, but it's a bit of an abstract measure because the question then people ask is, but what does that actually mean in real life?
And what did you actually do to make that happen? so. You know, success needs to have much more tangible measurements that actually mean something to, to employees. , so some of the success measures that I've seen with clients I've worked with will be things like, you know, an increase in the numbers of women, , you know, being promoted within an organization. Or, you know, if it's an organization that provides bonuses, maybe their, you know, their bonus pay gap has, has been reduced. And often that's a, result of women moving into more positions where bonuses are available, , in the first [00:25:00] place. . Can also look like, you know, more men taking up shared parental leave, for example. , or you know, more people, um, having better access to flexible working and therefore they've retained, you know, more working parents or, , people have taken on caring responsibilities. So these are the types of successes that I've been seeing that sometimes is not tied to the gender pay gap, but. It is related because it's all about people's ability to stay in work and to progress in work whatever they've got going on in their personal lives. Um, so, you know, so the success question I think is a really good one because I, I believe that we have to broaden our concept of what success in this space. Looks like, because that's the thing that people are really interested in. Not necessarily the percentage drop, like, but what have you done to make the workplace more equitable?[00:26:00]
Danya: Yeah, I think it's tough to always be looking at what hasn't been done, but at least to look at what's been done actually celebrate those successes. Right? So all of these examples that you've, you've spoken about, they've been really these extenuating factors that would pile up and just amalgamate on top of each other to make it a better working environment rather than just say, well, you haven't hit.
You know, 50 50 pay transparency or 50 50 closing the pay gap, right? So that's, it's tough and it's always a long road, but it's good to be able to sort of reflect on what's already been done. And with that, I'd love to end off with a small segment that I like to coin your defining moment. , so the last question that I have for you, Michelle, and thanks so much for today, is.
What is that one moment in your lifetime, professional or personal that has [00:27:00] gotten you to where you are and essentially being a part of the d and i journey in this, in, in the uk
Michelle: Hmm,
Danya: I.
Michelle: that's a good question. I wasn't expecting that one. Um, so I think the thing that came up for me was the fact that I'm in this space at all. So. As I said in the beginning of, of this conversation, I worked with the Equality and Human Rights Commission and I came in a quite, you know, is a, is an entry level role essentially.
So I was on, I was on the phone helping, you know, taking incoming calls, helping organizations, and a role came up that was two pay grades above what I was doing. And I remember looking at the job description and I just had this moment of. I can do everything that it says, but then the doubts started to set in.
I was like, oh, but it's two pay grades more. So I think it was something like, you know, 15 K more or [00:28:00] something, which, you know, for somebody not long outta university was a huge amount of money. And then I was like kind of swinging between going for it and not going for it. And then I just, I just had like a bit of a, like, chutzpah moment.
I was just like, you know what? I'm, I'm just, I'm just gonna go. I'm just gonna do it. The worst that can happen is that I don't get the role. And so the way that it worked, it was. You interviewed based on skills and competency, not necessarily the subject, and then you'd be assigned to the subject afterwards. So I, I didn't tell anybody. I told my boyfriend, but nobody else. I didn't tell any of my peers, any of my friends, like they all saw the advert because it was all transparent, but I didn't tell anyone I was going for it. I think because I was like, if I didn't get it, I didn't want anyone to know that I didn't get the role. I was like practicing in secret, et cetera. So anyway, so I did, I did the interview then I got the phone call to say that I got the job and I actually got. Two of them because one of them was [00:29:00] temporary year role and then the other one was a permanent one. apparently I was so good that they wanted me for both. Um, and so I, so back to your question, if I had not like had that moment of just, I can do that, then, I don't know if I would be here doing this role. Prob probably not. So I think in terms of career defining that would be it for me.
Danya: That's such a good story. You know, when you were talking about recruitment, I was just thinking about the incidents of how many females see this long list of bullet points in the requirements and self select themselves out.
Michelle: Yeah.
Danya: Um, which I'm so glad you didn't.
Yeah, so thank you so much for today. Really loved your insights and your opinions, and I'm super looking [00:30:00] forward to really hearing and continuing the dialogue too.
Michelle: Thank you. Thank you so much, uh, for the interview. It was, it was a lot of fun.
Danya: As we wrap up another insightful episode of Undeivided, I really want to thank you for joining me on this journey towards a more equitable world. Your engagement and support means everything. If today's conversation resonated with you or sparked a desire for action, I encourage you to share this episode with friends, families, and colleagues.
Together, we can amplify these important discussions and drive meaningful change. Remember, the dialogue doesn't end here. So connect with me on social media, share your thoughts and continue the conversation. Your voice matters. And together we can create a future where everyone feels respected and valued.
Thank you for being a part of the Undeivided community. My name is Danya. And until next time, let's keep striving.